Welcome back to Modern Financial Wellness. Every everybody, thanks for joining us. My guest today is a retirement coach, financial planner, keynote speaker, and the founder of Humans vs Retirement, a platform that explores the emotional, psychological, and deeply human side of retirement. He is now an author and he can add that to the bio. And he's here to talk about his new book, the retirement you didn't see coming, a guide to the human side of retirement nobody warns you about. Mr. Dan Halett, welcome back to Modern Financial Wellness.

So great to have you here, Jim.

Thank you, my friend. It's so cool to. It's always cool to have a conversation with you. I love catching up and we're just hitting record this time, so I can't wait. Be great.

Yeah, yeah. Love it. Love it. First of all, with running the risk of sounding overly flattering, I just want to say congratulations on the book that you've put together. You were kind enough to send me a copy to go through, and it's just. It's fantastic. I don't. I don't know what else to say.

You just hit the nail on the head in so many different areas. It's just a masterclass. So congratulations as we open up. I hope you're very proud of the work you put together.

Yeah, no, I am. Thanks very much, I think. Do you know what's really interesting, actually, just a very quick thing. I met one of my old school teachers about two, three weeks ago, and I live not far from where I went to high school. And I bumped into him. It's the first time I've seen him.

In years and years and years.

And we were talking about it and I said I'd wrote a book. And the look of shock on his face, almost like what you. Are you the same Dan Halett that went to the school that I taught at? So, you know, it's. Yeah, I think I've moved on a bit, but I'm super proud and the feedback's been amazing and, yeah, it's everything and more that I wanted it to be. So, yeah, really cool.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's really cool, too. I want to dig into the book and introduce, you know, what's in there for folks, because I think it can be so helpful and so impactful, but it's been interesting to kind of watch it evolve from afar. You know, you've been a financial planner for many, many years, so you've done the work, right, the portfolio management, the forecasting, helping people kind of obtain enough to think about retirement financially. But I've also seen you on LinkedIn social media with the sketches. It was, it's been awesome to kind of watch you ponder these things throughout the years. And this seems like a culmination of all the work that you've done. So I guess my first question is, why did you write this book? Because I think it'll be obvious for people when they pick it up.

This is not a how to invest how much money do you need type of book. So what were you thinking? Why did you want to put this piece of work together?

Yeah, I mean, as you said, you know, walking real life with real people and seeing their challenges in this phase of life over the last 10 years or so was, you know, has been eye opening in that the, the maths problem has almost been easily solved and navigated and all of the challenges leading up to, during, and into their second half of life in their retirement and have all, you know, none of it has really been to do with the money. And you know, I look at the conversations that I've had and part of me writing the book, I went back and listened to and read numerous transcripts of meetings. Right. So obviously we're, you know, we're pretty lucky now that we can record our meetings. And I was looking through those transcripts and you know, and searching out for keywords and, you know, you know, financial words were about 10% of the conversations that we were having. And I was looking for all these keywords and I was looking at challenges and all of this stuff. And it's just so blindly obvious and blatantly obvious that retirement is a human issue, money is part of it, but the focus is too much. And all of the issues that come with, and the challenges and the opportunities that come with this phase of life is all to do with kind of emotional intelligence, emotional issues and being a human.

So, you know, what I wanted to do is take all of that work that I've been doing for the last, I would say six or seven years in detail and go, I want to get that out into the world, I think, you know, and you kind of go on Amazon and you look through the books that are out there and there are some amazing retirement books, but the bulk of them are just, I think, do it too softly. They don't tackle the issues, they don't confront them, and they're not as hard hitting as what I think they should be. So I wanted to bring real life out and talk about real stories and, and real conversations and real issues that I saw with people and, and yeah, that was Kind of, you know, the, the basis of the book. And I, you know, I've got another two or three ideas in my head because it doesn't stop there and where it might, you know, and different, you know, I think that I wanted a truth telling book that allowed people to pick up when they wanted, they could go back through the book when they wanted to find different chapters to resonate with them at different times and to really help them transition into a really new way of life for us as modern day kind of human beings.

Yeah, that's great. And I think you do an amazing job boiling down what could be a really voluminous, voluminous book of content. I mean, these are big concepts that you introduced, but. And there's a lot of it in the book, but it's practical, it's digestible, it's to the point, right. There's not a lot of fluff in the book. So I think you do a fantastic job, like you said, putting all the, all this stuff into the world, but not just introducing it, but actually giving people something to do with it. And I, I look around at that same landscape of books that are out there and I think that that's where a lot of them really lack even to think about the more popular ones like the Psychology of Money. A really interesting book.

You know, I love exploring financial biases and psychology and Morgan Housel is a fantastic writer. But after that book, I don't know what people do with it. Right. And what I came away with in reading this is there's just packed with places to stop, ponder, reflect, exercises, questions. It's just, it's just packed. So again, I don't want to blow too much smoke, but it's really well done.

No, I mean, you're absolutely right. And I think that's, you know, what I wanted to do is, is stop, not stop, because everyone wants information. Right. But I just think there's too much telling and not enough, you know, showing. And it's very hard to, you know, to, to find a book that asks people to think, that shows them ways that tell stories, you know, and gets them thinking about this phase of life in a way that I thought that needed to be. So yeah, a big part of the book for me was kind of having something that people could write in that could underline, that could scribble, that could, they could, you know, dog ear the pages over, go back time and time again because you know, again I looking at the landscape out there and as you said, there's some great books that Give people information. But as you know, you know, you can give people all the information in the world, but unless that resonates and they take action, it's kind of irrelevant, isn't it? And that's exactly what I wanted to. To kind of bring out in this.

To just give people actionable tips, questions, ideas and thoughts that they could take away and do something with. And. And it's been one of the most pleasing pieces of feedback that I've had. Is. Is exactly what you said. It's kind of, you know, people going, I read that bit and I've done the exercise and I've answered the questions, and it's really helped me kind of, you know, put that bit in perspective and, you know, that that's exactly what I wanted to achieve.

Yeah, it's awesome. So let's dig in. Let's. Let's give people a taste of. Of what's in there. You kind of open the book with dispelling the myths or illusion that people have in their minds as they think about retirement. We've touched on this a little bit as you've joined the show in the past, but might be worth kind of exploring that. What.

What do you think the common illusions, misperceptions, myths, people hold in their. Their minds when they start thinking about what retirement is or will be?

Yeah. I think you can break it down into two categories. Right. And when I was putting this chapter, I mean, the original version of the book, this. This was at the end of the book, and I decided to put it at the front in kind of final editing, because I thought I wanted to kind of tackle these. I think, you know, setting up and tackling these illusions and myths would be a really good way to open it. And I think, you know, in my mind, there are two distinct categories of these. There are the illusions that people, I think would kind of know about, and there are the, you know, more to do with retirement.

So, for instance, you know, one of the illusions is, you know, retirement is the goal. That's, you know, that that's. And it's not. Right. The illusion is that it's the goal. But there's also the other side of the illusions which have kind of nothing to do, or people would perceive they've got nothing to do with retirement. Where I taught one of them, I talk about clarity, where, you know, clarity. People think clarity comes last.

And in fact, it comes. Sorry, clarity comes first, but in fact, it comes last. So you need to have a beginner's mindset, and you only get clarity if you try. So I think what I want you to do is kind of go, well, actually, because this is a massive transition. There are myths that people will absolutely understand, but probably. And allusions that will understand, but probably not have thought about in the way that I do. But there's a whole bunch of them as well, that. That they just won't even think that they need to explore because it's, you know, it's got nothing to do with what they're thinking.

Retirement. Retirement is right. So, like, clout, as I said, clarity comes first. And, you know, you'll figure it out. Once you get there is another one. If you're not productive, you know, all of this stuff. But, you know, when I think about, you know, retirement is the goal, the numbers will make you feel safe. The plan is the point.

These illusions. What I wanted to do is share is just to say to people that it's not you're. It's not that you're wrong. It's just the wiring that we've had over the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years. The things that we've been told, the things we've been observed, the kind of narrative that gets fed from, you know, the wider industry that has, you know, by the way, not your interests at heart, that kind of thing, have wired it to be like this, and we need to flip that around. So that's why I really wanted to. To kind of start and unpack some of those things.

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing to me how ingrained some of these mindsets around things like retirement become. The old, you know, 95 till 65, and then you're done. Right. It's the retirement is the goal. I have that sketch that you list in the beginning of that chapter where it's this kind of like, step chart. You know, you're moving along all the steps and you can get to the top one, and then it's just a cliff on the other side. It's like, well, what.

What happens after that? Yeah, yeah. But I think a lot of people struggle with this transition because they have these preconceived notions and the ingrained kind of social, cultural ideas that have. Have been given to them. And I think the other thing is that there is just a lack of anything else. Right. Which is why I read your book and familiar with your work, why I'm so excited about what you've put together, is it fills a void that is. That needs to be filled. You know, people need to be kind of their minds opened up and expanded a little bit into These other ways of thinking about things.

So I think it's really important. I think it makes a lot of sense that you move that up front to kind of dispel some of those things, at least get people thinking about their mindset going in.

Yeah, I mean, and it's really interesting, Rajin, because the feedback that I've had has demonstrated and re. Emphasized to me the, the want for this kind of information.

Right.

That, you know, people are searching out for this human side of retirement, you know, the psychological impact, etc, because they're telling me that they haven't found anything before or, you know, they struggle to find something that really resonated with them and they've been looking for it. And I think so it really does show me that people are starting to think this way and they want to be educated and they want to have, you know, they want to find out this information, you know, and I think that's. It's why my first. If I look at the first three illusions, they were picked in that order for a reason. Because again, when I looked through all my work, they were the things that were coming up more and more and more. You mentioned the first sketch about getting to the top of the stairs or the mountain and going, my God, it's kind of nothing there. You know, retirement is the goal. I've hit the.

Hit the thing. I've put the flag in the sand and everyone kind of gets there and goes, ah, now what now?

Right.

Like, you know, this, I've built up to this event and now what happens? And I've started working with people at that stage. I haven't worked with them during the climb. I've worked with them when they've planted the flag, they've hit retirement and they've come to me and they're like, I'm lost. Like, I don't know what's going on here. And so I wanted to get people there. And then, then the second one is the numbers will make you feel safe. And one of those things again, because I've, I've worked with so many people that believe that once they've got enough and once the numbers all make sense, once they've solved the math problem, they're going to feel okay, safe, secure, and everything will be fine. And I haven't come across anyone where that's happened.

So the reality, you know, this kind of the, the gap between what people believe and the reality of the people that go through it is so wide. And I wanted to show people that that is, you know, that there is this reality gap, that, this expectation.

Yeah. What's interesting there is, I'd imagine a lot of the people that face that, that point in life where they've done all the planning, they think if they attain this number, they'll feel safe in reality. I assume a lot of them are on paper financially secure.

Absolutely.

Right. So. Right. So it's, it's. You've done all the work, you do have enough, but you don't really trust that inside. You don't really feel that emotionally. Something else has to be going on here to kind of square those two things.

Yeah. And one of the. There's, there's. There's lots of client stories within the book, but I pick on three people particularly and there's a thread I share that their journey and story through throughout the book. And Neil and Claire, who, who that. Who. Who are in there. I had a meeting with them very, very.

I think it was the very first meeting I had with them. And Neil had this binder. Right. And it was a wonderful binder and it was color coded and it had everything in it. And if you knew Neil, you would know that he was pretty well qualified to create the binder. You know, and he. And all of this stuff and everything was fine. Right.

I mean, I'm not sure I could have done much better than what he did, you know, more than enough money every day. Everything was good. Right. And I remember Claire and I remember her fidgeting around and I looked at her and I said, I can't remember my exact words, but you know, what's going on? Claire, you, you know, you don't seem as enthused by the fact that this binder looks amazing and the money things. And she said, Dan, I don't know why I feel like this, and I know that we're financially okay, but I feel like I'm just, you know, waiting for something to go wrong. Right. And it's. And I was like, ah, okay, so the numbers are not making you feel safe then, are they? And she was like, no.

In fact, I'm more anxious about the numbers than I think I've ever been because now, you know, there is the numbers kind of giving me the crutch that, you know, if, if these now go down, then I'm going to feel less safe because there's no money coming back in and we start unpacking that journey. So I think, you know, that was my point around, you know, that the numbers, although should remove financial fear and anxiety, they don't give you purpose, they don't necessarily remove the worry about how you're going to spend your time. In fact, on some occasions they, they enhance some bad feelings. So yeah, I think it's really, really important to understand that just because you've done well and saved doesn't mean that you automatically transition into, you know, this wonderful phase of retirement. In fact, I actually think it's more difficult for people that have diligently saved and worked so hard because their emotional attachment to their money is much more than a lot of other people.

Yeah. If you're attaching safety and security to money, that's a big deal to unpack. Right. When that shifts into retirement.

Yeah.

So if people have this misconception and these illusions, regardless of where they came from, about what retirement is that we know are inaccurate in a lot of ways. What, what is retirement in reality? What does that look like?

Yeah, I mean, so, I mean I try and define so. So retirement for me is the opportunity. I mean, again, like if we could ban the word, I'm sure a lot of us would try and ban it. I'm not sure it's worth that fight if, because, you know, the word is ingrained. But when I look at it, it's about getting to a point in your life where you feel emotionally and financially free to be able to do things on your terms and do them with who you want to do them with.

Right.

So. And that can be at 45 or 65. I mean, numbers kind of irrelevant. It doesn't mean you stop work because work gives us a lot of non financial things as well, like purpose and identity and stuff like that. But it also doesn't mean you should stay in work because you don't want to be doing the hard work of kind of thinking about your purpose and your identity without a job title. So it's a bit of a challenge. But I think to me, you know, as I said, retirement is a human problem, not a maths problem. And so if we, if we work on ourselves as human beings and we, we do put the work in, then it is the most exciting phase of our life because for the first time since we were children, we are probably free.

Why do you use the word probably?

Because I think probably. Well, we are free probably depends on whether we want to accept it or not. Right. So you know, we, you know, it's one of those things that freedom, again, freedom is a. Well, I use it in the book a little bit and I think this one of the illusions as well. Right. Because I think freedom is actually a fancy word that Everybody aims for. But if you don't know what freedom means to you, you can be quite.

You can become quite paralyzed by freedom. You know, unstructured time and unlimited choice and all of this stuff actually can. Can paralyze people. So, you know, I think to me, you. You get to this point in life where you have the ability to feel free, and then it's up to you how you then design the life that you want to take advantage of that. Of that freedom.

Yeah, and, and, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. It's great. You do a great job, I think, of transitioning from the math problem into how you describe. As more complex questions. Right. You kind of describe this complicated, which versus complex questions. Right. And early on you're probably planning for retirement and you're spending a lot of time in the.

The complicated. But then you transition into retirement, there's all these other more complex. Can you, can you talk about that a little bit? Because I thought that was a really good way to kind of introduce this concept or shift in mindset. Yeah. About what we should be thinking about to design that life of freedom that you describe.

Yeah. And I think, you know, a real turning point for me in the work that I do was reading a lot about complexity theory. So nothing to do with retirement as such, just reading about what, you know, the difference between a complicated problem and a complex problem. And I remember reading stuff and it was like, look, a complicated problem is input, process, output, set of instructions, solvable, repeatable, process driven, etc. I remember thinking, that sounds a lot like a financial plan.

Right.

It sounds a lot like a numbers thing. You know, building IKEA furniture and baking a cake and things like that. Right. It's kind of like you have a set of instruction. There's inputs that go in, there's a process to follow. The output pretty much should be the output. And that's kind of where numbers sit. Now, when you get into the retirement transition, complexity theory suggests that there is no solvable problem here.

It's kind of this continuous loop of messy emotional issues that require constant re. Evaluation, you know, this kind of constant guidance. And I was thinking, gee, that sounds very much like us as human beings. Right. We're complex creatures. And I think part of the problem has been that we've tried to solve retirement. We've tried to make retirement a complicated problem, that if you create this cash flow plan with wonderful asset allocation and income strategies and withdrawal rates and you don't run out of money to age 100 because the maths all looks clean and nice. Then that feels like, you know, we've solved the problem and go and live your retirement.

But in fact, then what happens is that the deeply complex issues start ravaging and that's the, that's the thing that bites people. So that, to me is the most important work that people could do. And actually, as you said, a mindset. Mindset shift of if I know that I'm entering into a phase of my life that I shouldn't have to try and solve because it's unsolvable, that I have to be flexible and adaptable in, that requires, you know, for me just to kind of have ongoing guidance that requires for me to, you know, live in the moment a bit more. Then, then I think that mindset shift is so important for people to go. To go through. And so when you look at the questions like how much is enough versus what, what will retirement feel like? I mean, two very, very different questions, then both need to be explored.

Yeah, yeah, I was going to look that up. I was kind of thumbing through the book. There's that complicated side, which is how much do I need? When should I take my pension? What's the optimal withdrawal strategy? That's all the math side of the problem. Inputs in and output out on the complex retirement problems. You mentioned one, but there's who am I without work? What will give my life meaning in this next chapter? How do I feel? How do I deal with feeling unanchored or lost? Right. And these, to your point, are much deeper questions that probably don't have. Well, they may have an answer, but they're not going to be the same. They're going to be deeply personal and take work to explore.

Uh, so I, I just thought that was a great transition, a way to kind of frame the differences between those two phases of life or two ways of thinking about retirement planning. Um, you also, in that section, you kind of touched on this concept of this season of messy, ever evolving. You kind of describe it as a retirement reinvention curve. Can you talk about that a little bit? Because I think that's something that can be helpful for folks to kind of, you know, think about this ups and downs and ever evolving process.

Yeah, Again, it comes back to that complex issue. Right. If we know that we are emotional, messy creatures that, you know, go through wide ranges of these emotions, then I think it should be, we should be able to feel like we can recognize what some of those emotions are at certain points. So, you know, this is not, you know, what I've called the retirement reinvention curve. It's not a linear curve. You don't go through these emotions in, in order. What I wanted to try and create is kind of a bit of a, A bit of a journey that people skip over, miss, come back to, etc, but give people a language and an understanding that is perfectly fine to feel frustrated or doubtful at certain points in, in this journey because you're entering into something that you've never entered into before. And so that was part of this.

And actually the research that I did brought me to two things really, when I was looking at trying to map this emotional journey out. One was Dr. Riley Moyn and his TED talk that he did, which is a wonderful TED talk about different phases that people go through in retirement. And I spoke to Riley about this a little bit and then I come across the work by Cuba Ross, two ladies that done work on their, what they call the change curve of grief. And they plotted this emotional kind of journey that people go on when they go through the grieving process, when they kind of lose someone. And I remember looking at the words and the language and thinking, my God, I've had meetings that sound like this. You know, I've spoken to clients before that have gone, I feel like this and I feel like that. And you know, the lowest ebb of the change curve of grief is depression.

And you know, and I've spoken to people that are very doubtful about themselves and what they're doing and why they're doing it. So I was thinking, well, this is really interesting and retirement feels a lot, a lot like a bit of a loss, right? And you know, you lose identity and purpose and relationships and structure and all of that stuff. So when I was putting this together, I was thinking, right, I think there is some, definitely some phases here. And so I labeled them as release, rebuild and reignite. So three phases where, you know, you're letting go of stuff, you're rebuilding stuff, and then you reignite your, your life. And in that kind of journey you go through, there is some ups and downs and ebbs and flows, right? And you think about, if you go into this retirement phase, then you often firstly enter into a bit of a shock. You know, the first Monday after work, what the hell's going on? You know, and, and retirement shock has been, you know, widely documented with people. It's kind of like this shock to the system.

It's not a financial shock, it's an emotional shock. It's like, my God, you know, I'm don't have to do this or do that. And et cetera. And typically what happens after retirement shock is people go into the honeymoon phase of retirement. They become elated by the time that they have then got. So you get this real nice upkick of kind of happiness and you're in your honeymoon phase and you're doing everything and you're ticking off items on the bucket list and all of that. But what I've noticed with a lot of people is that that phase comes to an end. And when it comes to an end, they really, really struggle.

And actually they go quite in the depths of some emotions they get. They become uneasy, they get really frustrated. They go into kind of a phase of doubt about what they've done. They, you know, they go and do things they typically wouldn't do. They buy camper vans or start a side hustle or, you know, I'm not saying it's bad things, but, you know, they starting to make decisions to try and gain back some purpose and identity.

Is that tied to the most dangerous day in retirement, that day 182,082?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's, you know, day 182 can come in shock. It can come in frustration or unease. But typically what you find is that, you know, you'll as again, you'll have this retirement shock in the first kind of month and then you might have six to nine months of, of honeymoon elation phase. And then at some point, you know, day 182 to. Well, I've called it day 182 because it sounds cool. And it's a bit of a. It's a moment, right? It can come nine months or a year or six months, but that day 182 moment is kind of.

Wait, is this it? Like, I've done a lot of stuff now and I'm. Now it's 9:47 on a Tuesday morning and I'm staring into the fridge. I don't know why, you know, the dog's staring up at me going, what are you doing in my house? You're really annoying me, you know, and you're looking for inspiration from like the ham or the Greek yogurt. You don't really know what's going on. And I said, you know, that's the point about this really messy transition. It's that 9:47am on a Tuesday is the thing that people need to really focus on because, you know, it's not about the holidays you go on or the planned stuff that you do. It's. It's the everyday Foundational life that you, that you want to live.

And that's when people start questioning themselves. And it can really, really emotionally hurt people. I've seen people, you know, where I've had quite difficult conversations with them that have kind of ended in me going, I think you should go see someone. Right. You know, because they are, you know, they're not communicating with their spouse like they used to. You can, you can see the tension and feel the tension that they have that, you know, the vitality that they had nine months earlier has kind of just left them a little bit because they're going into this really tricky, messy phase. And my point about this retirement invention curve is to say I think most people go through it. And the key there is to understand that it's okay to feel doubtful and frustrated because you have made the most seismic shift that you're ever going to make in your life.

Really. But yeah, yeah, you know, the great news is in order to rebuild, you have to kind of feel like things might have to go down a bit first and out the other side. When I see people put the real human work in to this and when I talk about that human work, the work of purpose and identity, relationship structure and well being, when they put the work in, they still potentially go through the emotional challenges, but they come out the other side. They get into kind of, you know, they recalibrate, they reignite and then they flourish and life just becomes life. They don't, they don't use the word retirement anymore. They are just living life. Right? They're living their life. It's a different phase of life.

And they've got, they've got a rhythm, they've got a structure. They're spending their money in line with their values. They know that time is precious and they're spending their time wisely and it is just life. And I think that's the opportunity that lays on the other side of going through some of these real emotional challenges.

Yeah. I wanted to just touch on one couple of things. One, you mentioned the human work. People should be open and ready to do the work. Right. This isn't something that you can thumb through a book and think about. It's a journey. And there's resources, your books and plenty of others that are out there to help people explore these things.

But you got to be willing to do the work. This isn't necessarily going to be easy. You can't flip a switch on these things. You got to sit and ponder and be willing to put in the effort. And then you touched on These core areas, identity, purpose, relationships, well being, those are, as you describe them, the five pillars or the new forget thriving retirement. Yeah, five pillars of a thriving retirement. Right. So if you're really going to do this, right, flourish, and you're looking for places to do that work, you kind of organize them around those five pillars.

Can you touch on those a little bit? Because I think they'd be worthwhile for people to hear.

Yeah. So, and, and, and actually I say a lot in this you can place. So replace the word retirement with life. Right? These are five pillars for a thriving life. We all need as human beings purpose and identity. We need good relationships, we need structure and we need to look after our well being. You know, the engine that we have that carries us through life, mental and physical. But, but the reason why I've put them there in terms of the five pillars of a thriving retirement, it goes back to the loss thing that I said.

And if you think about, you know, our journey through life and particularly in our careers, we've, we've got a lot of that stuff. You know, we, you know, when we work, we may not like it, a lot of us do, but you know, we've got purpose and we've got an identity, et cetera. And so, and I find people you.

Mentioned, you know, a lot of us like it, the work that we're doing, even the people that I talk to that maybe don't love their job, it's not their ideal career. Their husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, right. And going to work and providing for their family gives them that sense of identity and purpose that they need, even if they don't love work. Right. So you don't have to love it for it to be very fulfilling in a lot of ways. Right.

100. It's a bit like what's the story, Jim, about the, the drill bit? Have you heard that one where it's kind of like, you know, you, you know, people go, I want to buy a drill bit to drill a hole, but actually you want, you want to buy a drill bit to put a shelf up and actually you want to buy a drill bit to put your kids toys on a shelf and actually you want to put a drill bit.

Yeah.

To put, to actually clear the room for your children to play nicely in and safely. So like the drill that, you know, when you think about, as you said, when you think about work, the purpose of work can be to provide your family with a wonderful life, right? And that's wonderful purpose to have doesn't mean that you enjoy the job. Or get fulfilled from it. So, so, absolutely. And I think so. So for me, when you think about these five pillars of a thriving retirement, again, that's what I want to put in the book, is to give people the kind of a blueprint to work on and go, right, we know the myths and the illusions. We've looked at the most dangerous day. We've gone through the retirement reinvention curve and all of the emotional journeys.

We've looked at why retirement is a more of a complex human problem than a complicated math one. Now what, you know, that's great, Dan, thank you very much. What are the things that I need to focus on in order to be able to feel like I can navigate this? And what I looked at is actually what are the things that you lose when you make this transition? And those were the five things that come about time and time and time again that made this transition difficult. So what I wanted to do is say, right, these are the five pillars of a thriving retirement. And these are the things that you need to ensure that you replace, that you reinvent, that you focus on. Because you need purpose in your life. You need to want to be able to pull back the duvet. It doesn't need to be grand, your purpose.

You don't need to have like, you know, TED talk style stuff or set up foundations and all of that. It just needs to, it needs to mean something to you and you need to have that. You can have purposes, right? You don't have to be one singular thing, but you need to make sure that you have a reason to be doing stuff. You need to make sure that you know who you are without a job title. You know, we all want to have identities and identity and, and a lot of us have tethered our identity to our work. And that's a, I mean, it's the, the logical thing to have done. But also during this retirement transition, it's one of the most dangerous things that we've done. And, and there is a lot of writing and talk and research around how people are going through an identity crisis at the moment.

Even people that are still in work, they're questioning who they are, they're questioning why they do stuff. You know, they don't like being called X, Y, Z. And so, you know, who are you without the LinkedIn bio and the job title? Who are you when your emails stop pinging, when your inbox isn't full up, when you haven't got to commute every day, when you're not having those conversations at the water Cooler. But who are you? And again, you don't have to answer that with something massive and grandeur. You just have to feel like you've, you're kind of morphing into. So something is creating this identity and then, and then kind of, you know, when you think about how crucial relationships are to happiness and well being. Right. The Harvard study that I talk about a lot that tells us that relationships are the number one predictor of a long and healthy life.

The number one challenge of retirees is to replace the social connections at work. You know, we know how important relationships are and how relationships will change during retirement. Your relationship with your spouse, your children, your grandchildren is going to fundamentally shift. And you need to recognize that because for the first time in a long time, if you're married, you're going to be spending a lot of time together and you might find that, you know, you might find that your wife, for instance, has got a life anyway that you're now kind of in, you're kind of barging into. So it's a laugh.

I think of my parents a lot in that section. So my, my dad is retired and has been for a while and he's very content calling his golf buddies who are great connections and it. That gets him outside and walking around. He's very, very content. But the, my mother still continues to work a couple of days even though I've proven to her on paper she doesn't have to y. And I think she's joking, but she may be serious when she says she does it because dad's at home and what, you know, what are we going to do? Right. Like thinking about your own individual journey through this process. You touch on the, in the book, which I think for couples is really important to consider this, this might not always be a totally aligned.

We're on the same train tracks at all times. You're going to experience these things differently. And thinking about how they kind of come together or clash at times is worthwhile.

Yeah. And that was through experience. Right. You're meeting couples and they're going, you know, there's this, you know, there's this real sense of, you know, we're going to retire together and have the same journey and then you see them six months later and they are on the verge of divorce. Like, no, no joking around. Right. I mean, they, you know, they found that they don't have a lot in common. They've, they've started talking about this for the first time in, in years.

One of them wants to travel around Europe in a Camper van. And one of them wants to be at home and look after the grandchildren more. Right. And it's like, well, you're now at polar opposites of, of this spectrum of what you, how you want to spend your time in retirement. And you've started talking about it once you're retired. I mean, that's, that's not very good. And so this is kind of saying as, as you said, there are three journeys. If you're, if you're with someone, you're married or you with a partner in retirement, there are three journeys.

There's your journey, there's their journey and there's the, the, our journey, the together one. And all three need the same amount of planning, time and space and respect to all three of them. And I think it's so important that that conversation is had well before people end up retiring. Because again, like your parents, Jim, there's different timelines. People, you know, someone might really want to retire or need to retire and the other person might go, actually I really, I'd quite like to continue working two or three days a week. You know, I've, I've, I've worked with a few couples, but one, one in particular where he really wanted to retire and absolutely could and did. His wife was a primary school or kindergarten teacher and she loved her children, like, loved the children and she couldn't give up for two years because she wanted to see this class all the way through to the end as they graduated and she, and, and so there was a little bit of a clash there to start with. Cause he was like, I'm going.

But we're now going to have to go on holiday when it's school holidays, which is like, you know, which I don't want to do that anymore. And so they talked about it, etc, and, and anyway, it's fine. But yeah, you know, I think that that's, that's, that's a really, really important part of, of this retirement journey when it comes to relationships. And I heard someone say the other day, it's like, you know, married you for better or worse, but not for breakfast. Which I found hilarious. Time.

And yeah, it's great, it's great. The final one, which I'd be remiss without touching on real quick, is the well being part. You have a great client story of a client whose doctor, he thought he was sick and the doctor said, oh, you're just slowing down, right? And you know, you think about this identity crisis. You've given up your, your lack of purpose, you're not setting the alarm anymore. You're not getting moving. Right. The train starts to slow down and people feel that physically. So any thoughts on well, being keeping yourself healthy, mentally, emotionally, physically, you know, to kind of carry you through and be able to take advantage of all this newfound freedom?

Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I do think retirement or the notion of. And when people start living in retirement shines a spotlight on, on things both healthy and unhealthy habits. And that's one of the shocks I think people get. They often feel like they are healthy and they move and then they retire or you know, they haven't got a problem with alcohol. I'm not saying I deal with loads of alcoholics, but they haven't got a problem with alcohol. And then they realized that they used to go out for a drink every lunchtime and they can't break that cycle and they're going down the pub every lunchtime and you know, I mean it's that. So it's really, really important to understand the, the, the physical and mental well being that you can bring into your second half of life is going to give you the engine to take advantage of the work that you have put in to get there. But if you neglect it, it's going to really, really, really show up.

And like the physical one, I think we, we all have a decent idea. We need to move more, we need to make sure that we are active in those years. We talk, I've talked to a lot of people about, you know, bone density and muscle wastage and how strength training is really, really important and resistance training and all of that stuff and absolutely 100%. But I think mental well being is something that is not necessarily overlooked but it's misunderstood. And the stats that are coming out now about depression etc in retirees to me is actually quite shocking. I think the one I come across a couple of weeks ago was that people in retirement are 40%, like 40% more likely to be diagnosed clinically with depression than people that are not. Right. So you know, and, and that's a problem because what people aren't doing is looking after their well being.

And we know, you know, loneliness, there's a loneliness epidemic, right? This is factually proven and actually, you know, loneliness is as bad as smoking 15 cigarettes a day for our physical and mental health. So it's really important to make sure you create your tribe, you go back to the relationships thing. It's really important to stay curious, to start new things, to be a Beginner again, to keep the brain sharp, you know, And I come across lots of my clients talking about their parents and the onset dementia and. And stuff that's going on, and they're really worried about this stuff. So it's so important to not feel like you retreat. It's so important to feel like you can go and learn and fail and start again and, you know, and sure that you are keeping your brain and your body nice and sharp doesn't mean you have to go and do Iron man stuff and all of that, but just keep nice and sharp is so important.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking, as you're describing, these five pillars that you said, I think they're fantastic pillars, not just for retirement, but for life. You know, people should be paying as much attention to these things as at 35 or 45 as they are at 65. And I can't help. This is a tangent. We could talk another time. But I can't help but feel like in this new world that we live in, with so much remote work, how much of that social connection that used to be obtained at the office or the workplace isn't there anymore. Right.

And we're just kind of connecting online. I think about my wife, even she works fully remote from home. We got into this conversation about how much she spent on, you know, coffee shops and having lunch outside, and she just looked at me and said, that's the only time I get out of the house. Right. And she's in her working years. Right. So it's. It's shocking to hear some of these statistics about people who find themselves in that position in retirement, but not surprising at the same time when you think about the lack of identity and purpose and connection and all those things.

So. So yeah, maybe a good way to wrap up, you know, on. On that. Is there anything we missed? Anything you want to spotlight for folks? Words of wisdom to leave anybody with? No. Let you go.

I mean, listen, I think, you know, the. The danger that I, when I was writing the book, what I want to make sure is that for people to understand that I tackle some hard issues, I believe, but the feedback I've got is that it's pretty inspirational, hopefully on the flip side. So, because it's tackling the things, it can seem like it's all a bit, you know, downbeat, but it's about tackling those issues, giving people a framework and a blueprint to feel like they can come out the other side. And, you know, that's how I want this book to really land with. With people. Because again, it is. You know, when I see people do this, right. They are living the life that I want to try and live when I get to that point in.

In life. Right. And, and so, yeah, yeah, that's what I want to make sure people understand.

Yeah. Love it. Dan, appreciate your time, Appreciate your expertise. Would highly encourage people to go out and get the book, the retirement you didn't see coming. Skip everything else. This is the most practical, to the point on the important issues book you're going to find. Where should people go to pick up the book? Is there a direct link you want to direct people to or Amazon? What's the best place for people to go check it out?

Yes. So because I have self published it, the Amazon thing is a little bit sketchy, but you can get it on Amazon. But the best place to get it from is the Great British Bookstore. And I'll send the link over to you. It's available across the world on that link. Awesome.

All right, so we'll direct people to. That would highly encourage people to check out the rest of Dan's work. The Humans vs Retirement podcast, the blog, the newsletter, the retirement fix. All amazing stuff. So look up Dan, subscribe to all his stuff, pick up the book and let him know what you think. And appreciate everybody listening. If this was helpful and you enjoyed the content, hit subscribe. That's helpful for us and we appreciate you checking us out.

Until next time, everybody. Thanks again for listening to this episode. A quick note, although I do hope that the information that we talked about was helpful, in no way is anything discussed on the podcast to be taken as specific financial advice. Please consult your own advisors and do your own research when you're making important financial decisions.